General Sonic is Terrible Thread

[Koopaul]

You know after watching the ending of that video again and thinking about Sonic's appeal versus Mario's appeal made me think a lot about Donkey Kong. As you all know I love DK with a passion, but always questioned why no one else did. Sure people can love the games as, well, games but few people love DK the way they love Sonic or Mario. The only people who do are a small minority on the DKVine. But I think I'm starting to understand why.

I might make a separate topic about this later.

[Gors]

I kinda think Sonic works better as a 2D game. Not that I like retro games or shit, but one less dimension means more control over your character: and going really fast requires more control.

Also a 2D environment is easier to build than a 3D one, making the stages more straightforward. There is no need to make a Sonic game in 3D (unless it's 2.5D), because 3D implies exploration (and that in turn implies a slower game pace).

Nothing wrong in adding some exploration in a Sonic game, but too much of it would get on the way.

[Omegajak]

I could agree. Too bad I think Sonic Lost World is exactly the step we needed, yet the world at large disagrees. Here's the problem with that sentiment Gors. It sounds lazy. Especially in today's gaming world. A lot of objects/materials are now interchangeable and a lot of engines make working and tweaking physics easier than it's ever been. I argue that Sonic Lost World is the 3D Sonic everyone wants but deny, due to one of the basic principles of building Sonic stages that the original 4 games were known for. "Does this play like the first stage?" "How fast can it be done?" Answer those two questions first and you don't replicate the first stage you create stages that built like it but are unique to their environment.

Remeber how big and long it seems to be when you're in Angel Island Zone and then you realize EVERY stage is bigger than before? Scale is a big issue here, and though it is eaiser to make 2D Elements and creating a game in a 2D space we could just be making new 2D Sonic games there's no reason there's no place for both. If Generations showed us anything it's that there's clearly room for both. I don't believe we need a Generations 2 (Though that'd be fun for anotehr 25 year anniversary if SEGA makes it to 50.) but, after playing Sonic Before the Sequel and After the Sequel I think SEGA is just not bothering to diversify their ideas. They could be making 1-2$ Cell Phone Sonic Games like Before and After the Sequel every 4-9 months. Releasing a major Sonic title every 2-4 years.

A Sonic Lost World game with less dumb puzzles the take the point away from Sonic and Sonic with a Run and walk feature that doesn't make you fingers sore (that's my only real complaint about Lost World that Sonic feels good but still not polished to go and start, though I argue the laziness of levels and camera control attest to that.

Why do I think Sonic is the true turning point of 3D Sonic? Have you seen the Sonic CD intro? did you not want to jump on rocks and enemies over hills and walls like Sonic? perptually defying terrain and gravity in some aspects? Yeah? Well then there's you answer. Sonic's whole idea immmorial is about capturining that idea and Sonic Lost World is the only game that has ever come close. Not even Generations Wave Dash no time to go back Modern Sonic can't manupulate his movement to do other things besides go fast like Lost World Sonic can.

[Shade]

Sure people can love the games as, well, games but few people love DK the way they love Sonic or Mario.

Ooh, pick me, pick me.

I'd totally put Donkey Kong in the same league as Mario or Sonic. Could be for blind nostalgia reasons, but I'd definitely do it. The DKC series is a masterpiece.

[~Axis~]

Spoiler

I could agree. Too bad I think Sonic Lost World is exactly the step we needed, yet the world at large disagrees. Here's the problem with that sentiment Gors. It sounds lazy. Especially in today's gaming world. A lot of objects/materials are now interchangeable and a lot of engines make working and tweaking physics easier than it's ever been. I argue that Sonic Lost World is the 3D Sonic everyone wants but deny, due to one of the basic principles of building Sonic stages that the original 4 games were known for. "Does this play like the first stage?" "How fast can it be done?" Answer those two questions first and you don't replicate the first stage you create stages that built like it but are unique to their environment.

Remeber how big and long it seems to be when you're in Angel Island Zone and then you realize EVERY stage is bigger than before? Scale is a big issue here, and though it is eaiser to make 2D Elements and creating a game in a 2D space we could just be making new 2D Sonic games there's no reason there's no place for both. If Generations showed us anything it's that there's clearly room for both. I don't believe we need a Generations 2 (Though that'd be fun for anotehr 25 year anniversary if SEGA makes it to 50.) but, after playing Sonic Before the Sequel and After the Sequel I think SEGA is just not bothering to diversify their ideas. They could be making 1-2$ Cell Phone Sonic Games like Before and After the Sequel every 4-9 months. Releasing a major Sonic title every 2-4 years.

A Sonic Lost World game with less dumb puzzles the take the point away from Sonic and Sonic with a Run and walk feature that doesn't make you fingers sore (that's my only real complaint about Lost World that Sonic feels good but still not polished to go and start, though I argue the laziness of levels and camera control attest to that.

Why do I think Sonic is the true turning point of 3D Sonic? Have you seen the Sonic CD intro? did you not want to jump on rocks and enemies over hills and walls like Sonic? perptually defying terrain and gravity in some aspects? Yeah? Well then there's you answer. Sonic's whole idea immmorial is about capturining that idea and Sonic Lost World is the only game that has ever come close. Not even Generations Wave Dash no time to go back Modern Sonic can't manupulate his movement to do other things besides go fast like Lost World Sonic can.

The thing is, besides capturing the idea, Sonic lost world was too tubeular with level design which skrewed up all the cool environments. I dunno about you but I dont want to be running around tubes to find extra paths or items and call that exploring. They should bring that type of thing on a flat plane. We know they can make great environments, striking a balance is the problem. They cant seem to make sonic fast without linear gameplay and they cant add in exploration without making him slow.

[Omegajak]

Omegajak agrees that 3D Sonic games are bad in comparison to 2D but, can tell you how close we've come to perfecting Sonic in a 3D space if we study key elements in Sonic.


Sonic can do:

Jump. One Button input. Doubles as Attack
Spin Dash. Direction Down and Button Push or simply hold down while moving. Doubles as Attack
Super FIgure-8Peel Out. Hold Up and Jump Button. Is Not an Attack.

Added moves:
Homing Attack. Double Tap Jump button whilst near enemy.
Light Speed Dash. When in front of rings and appropriate item/ability unlocked press jump button. Is not an Attack.
Light Speed Attack. Unlock ability Press Down and Run and Jump buttons together can destroy several enemies on screen.

Run. Hold Down Other Button, or gain momentum whilst moving.
Tricks. Press run button while in air score big and get power ups and rings
Wall Climb. Either holding down or already running towards a wall.
Wall Run. Press Run button while moving near a wall causes Sonic to speed up while already wall running.

All of the above can be done on a Genesis controller.  I did that purposely because I want you to see how simple a Sonic game is and how many things you can do when working with these things in mind. These are all the things Sonic is now known for Lost World introducing some of that newer stuff. A lot of this stuff is simple, SEGA just keeps failing to notice how these things should work. The level in Design in Generations was superb it just didn't naturally allow for Sonic to Explore it because that's not Adventure Sonic, he's always moving too fast and his emphasis speed, and honestly this Sonic variant needs to be put on Touchscreens and nothing else since all he is a roller coaster thrill ride. Not to say he has no merit but the's got such a low threshold I don't understand why we keep playing him up like HE'S modern Sonic. Not modern as in redesign modern as in the one who works best in 3D space which is Lost World Sonic unfortunately he was in the wrong game. What SEGA needs to do is get the mechnics of Sonic Lost World into a game that looks like Modern Sonic Generations levels except cater those levels to Lost World Sonic. In Generations they pulled off the mechanic of Underground and above ground beautifully. You miss a jump down you go oh you foudn another way back up? Awesome. The level can be cleared fast enough by most people but the hardcore find all their little special ways and hacks. I don't understand how SEGA keeps missing the mark the Sonic formula is pretty simple when i worked backwards from what was good about the best 3D games and what made the old games so good. If SEGA made a Sonic Lost world engine Sonic game with the same simple, yet complex or is the word I'm looking for 'dynamic'? Whatever, if they make that engine work with the level design of generations yet even throw 2D Sonic in there sometimes since that's not hard to do, they proved they can do that, it can still be fun and enjoyable in today's world.

[Iceman404]

The problem is that some people think:
"Sonic can't work in 3D"
When its really:
"Sonic has yet to work in 3D"

There are so many ways to do it right but SEGA always flunks

[~Axis~]

The problem is that some people think:
"Sonic can't work in 3D"
When its really:
"Sonic has yet to work in 3D"

There are so many ways to do it right but SEGA always flunks

This is why people think that. I wonder if Sega just isnt hiring the right people or are just listening to the wrong people. :\

[Gors]

Sonic in 3D could work - but the whole idea of adding depth in the game is to make a more detailed world in the sense of exploring it - platforming will get a little less accurate in order to accomodate this new dimension.

However Sonic is a speed game, and while I don't mind a 3D Sonic game, speed and accuracy must walk together. Or else all you'll get are pre-programmed speed sections (oops)

[Vipershark]

The problem is that some people think:
"Sonic can't work in 3D"
When its really:
"Sonic has yet to work in 3D"

The problem is people thinking that when the adventure games have been around for almost 20 years
Everything post-adventure was complete ass. The only post-adventure game that I can look at and see any kind of potential with is 06 of all things because it truly seemed like they were aiming for "Adventure 3" with that one, but... well, we all know how that turned out.

The adventures weren't perfect and had their share of issues but they're nearly unanimously considered to be the high point of the series (after the original genesis games of course) but any attempts to build upon them or expand them have been awful because Sega.

Sonic should not be a hallway simulator.

[~Axis~]

Oh man I so wanna spindash in a game other than lost world.

[Vipershark]

Just in case my point wasn't clear in my last post

Sonic can, does, and ALREADY HAS worked in 3D for more than a decade and Unleashed/Colors/Generations' style of run straight and boost is not "Sonic in 3D".

If the gameplay used in the Adventure games was expanded and improved upon to make something even better I'm sure a third peak will happen for the series.

[Omegajak]

Just in case my point wasn't clear in my last post

Sonic can, does, and ALREADY HAS worked in 3D for more than a decade and Unleashed/Colors/Generations' style of run straight and boost is not "Sonic in 3D".

If the gameplay used in the Adventure games was expanded and improved upon to make something even better I'm sure a third peak will happen for the series.

Hey man I get it. Sonic 06' What only could have been Sonic Adventure 4 or 5 by now. Ugh. Wasted opportunities. Imagine my dream world where Shadow plays grind intensive levels that reequire him to collect rings and store up power like Boost Modern Sonic but instead it's the bar for Chaos Control or Chaos Blast? Or the fact when you play as Silver it's nothing but platform elevation levels or straight fly levels but are floaty and different and more challenging than say The Tornado Egg Carrier Chase Sequences (Which were pretty damn fun!)? Imagine if you played as Knuckles where in levels instead of not benefitting speedy characters like Shadow and Sonic it benefits Knuckles exclusively cause of his notorious Treasure hunting and tracking skills? Tails? Just put him back in the Tornadoe. Give him a Mecha Tails vs Mecha Robotnik fight sequence in a schump format. It's like there are already great games in the world and you just put Mario over it and addmario things to it and everyone loves it. I don't see how hard it could be to just make something fun and feels like a game with Sonic and friends in it. I know it can be done cause it already happened like Vipe said. Twice. (Sonic fsinished getting points in a bonus level sound) (Continue earned sound).

[Kriven]

Isn't that how it used to be done at Nintendo? They would make a game and then fit a character over it? I recall that even being the case with Kirby's Epic Yarn.

It seems like when you try to make a game that suits a franchise.... it doesn't quite work.

[Koopaul]

Most of the time they do it that way. But sometimes they say, "its about time we made a new Star Fox game" or something like that.