games you dislike that everyone likes and vice versa

[Zero Kirby]

If I could have an entire game of Water Temple that would be great. My favorite temple.

Uhm, do you mean the 3ds version? Because the original is so painfully slow that it's hard to enjoy the puzzles.

Considering the 3DS version of the Water Temple is exactly the same as the Nintendo 64 version of the Water Temple, I don't think it matters?

Anyway... I must admit I actually kind of like the 3DS port of Snake Eater

I'll probably like it more when the New 3DS comes out though

[Paladin]

If I could have an entire game of Water Temple that would be great. My favorite temple.

Uhm, do you mean the 3ds version? Because the original is so painfully slow that it's hard to enjoy the puzzles.

Considering the 3DS version of the Water Temple is exactly the same as the Nintendo 64 version of the Water Temple, I don't think it matters?

The iron boots are mapped to an item button, which vastly improves the flow of the game. Not
having to open the sluggish menu certainly helps.

[Kriven]

I haven't played OoT 3D yet, so I can't speak about it. I will say that switching to the equipment screen has never bothered me in either of the N64 titles. I actually like the pause menu... I think it's probably my favorite pause menu of any game. It comes up through the game, has very pleasant sounds, that shiny, crystal aesthetic design, and the way it's designed I imagine it as a cube as opposed to pages. I also don't mind breaking up the action that way. Gives me a chance to think about things.

[E-Man]

As much as Super Mario RPG is a fun, interesting game, it never appealed to me in the same way the other Mario RPGs do and it's a little overrated in my opinion.

Warning - Big wall of text.

Sure, it implemented a lot of good ideas that are commonplace in a Mario RPG (including timed hits), but they were vastly improved upon in later games. Also, I don't understand the design of enemies. While I will agree that several enemies are creative, they mostly seem out of place/too freaky to be in a Mario game. As for the common Mario enemies, they took some unusual creative liberties with them, range from a simple name change to an odd redesign (the gingerbread Goombas were one thing, but I'm baffled by why the Spinies look like knights).

The other thing is that the layout of the world is very odd. It's one thing to have Bowser's Castle (or Keep in this case) next door to Mario's house, but how come one little town is considered the Mushroom Kingdom? Shouldn't it make more sense that the entire world (or at least a sizable part of it) be the Mushroom Kingdom instead? I realize that there's the potential for irony and symbolic meaning by reducing the seemingly vast Mushroom Kingdom to a small town, but the thing is that I'm not sure if that was actually done on purpose. Also, the world itself looks pretty fake by not only having location that don't look natural (Star Hill looks more like a toy meteor than something that crashed into the planet naturally, and don't get me started on the look of Barrel Volcano), but also the world is a ring. I know this is Mario we're talking about, but if you compare the other RPGs, they put in a little more thought in the world map and general overworld.

Speaking of the overworld, is there any reason why the game is so linear outside of story progression? In a Paper Mario game or a Mario & Luigi game, areas are either blocked off by a lack of abilities or there's an obvious "gate" preventing access. Sure, these games are no less linear than Super Mario RPG, but what's stopping Mario from waltzing all the way to Monstro Town at the start of the game? Besides a few exceptions (such as the Land's End Paratroopa thing), there are no obvious barriers to keep Mario from progressing too early in the game apart from certain locations not becoming selectable on the map. If Mario RPG had a physical overworld without any tweaks applied to the game as it is, then it's possible for the player to venture anywhere due to a lack of "plot gates" and Mario himself never learns any new exploration tricks (the same goes for his partners). Personally, I think it would be a good thing if Super Mario RPG was non-linear for the most part (something that even Paper Mario: Sticker Star experimented with). That way, the player has the choice to collect the Star Pieces in any order and overall choose their initial difficulty. That's how it was in the Zelda games (especially the first one), and if the player is having too much trouble with a harder dungeon, all the player has to do is seek out an easier dungeon before tackling harder ones. Besides, it'll make EXP grinding a lot more interesting.

A pet peeve I have about the game is how everyone keeps blabbing off about how Geno is the best character ever. Sure, he's very useful in battle and his overall character and backstory are interesting (the idea of a star possessing a doll's body is pretty unique), but he's honestly not as good as most people hype about. If anything, the best party member in terms of character development that isn't one of Nintendo's own characters is Mallow. I know he's not the best in combat and he tends to whine, but hear me out. Mallow's backstory is a lot more deep and interesting than Geno's. As silly as it that he thinks he's a frog and how generic it is that he ends up as a prince from another world, it's at least a huge step in the right direction during a time when Mario games are not known for elaborate stories. When you first meet Mallow, he was a confused, whiny "frog" who only wanted to do his errands without some crocodile giving him trouble. After joining forces with Mario to retrieve his stolen coin and save the day from a giant knife-like pogo-stick, he returns home to learn of his true origins from the man he thinks is his grandfather. With Mario's help, Mallow sets off on a journey to not only set the world right, but also find where he actually belongs.

I personally think that Mallow is better than Geno because he's more relatable and actually grows as a character. While there's not that many people I know of who is an all powerful servant from a higher order, the idea of losing your true parents and being raised by someone completely different is very believable. Mallow truly thought that he belonged in Tadpole Pond and everyone liked him there. Once he got the news that he wasn't a tadpole, it gravely distressed Mallow. It wasn't until he shortly realized that his parents were still out there that he gained a glimmer of hope and a new purpose in life. In fact, the moment he found his parents' wish on Star Hill is one of the most profound moments in the game for me. As for Mallow's personality, it's actually his imperfections that breaths a little more life into him. Even though Mallow is physically weak, not exactly brave, and tends to whine a lot, he makes up for it throughout his journey with Mario. Not only does he muster up the courage to defeat many foes, but he even acts as Mario's straight man/voice of reason when he's out of control (the instances before fighting Bowyer and during the scene where Geno gets his Finger Shot in Rose Town comes to mind). Besides that, he's sometimes cocky and often acts as the comic relief, which further rounds out his character. With Geno, though, he mostly remains the same throughout the game. He acts like he's superior to Mario, is mostly fixated on bigger problems while usually ignoring smaller ones, and only has two emotions more or less (authoritative and smug). There's never really a moment that gives any insight on Geno's flaws and there's overall nothing to make him more "human." As a result, he has no more character development than the wood he is made of and lacks any emotional depth. As awesome of a character as Geno is, he's basically a cardboard cutout of a cool superhero in essence.

Anyway, I'm sorry for writing a novel when I only wanted to explain my thoughts on Super Mario RPG. For the record, I don't hate the game by any stretch of the imagination. It's just that it doesn't live up to the hype I keep hearing about and doesn't need a direct sequel when its spiritual successors are vastly superior to the original game in more than one aspect.

[Goemar]

Kind of have to agree. I don't get why people love Geno so much, I think because he's stereotypically "cool" as a lot of people played the game when they were young he automatically became awesome to many. To be honest I think a lot of Mario RPG love comes from the fact that for a while, it was the only Mario RPG - and it never came out in the PAL territories, which always adds a bit of that "collectable/rare" hype (aka Radiant Silvergun).

Mario and Luigi is the far superior game in every way.

[Kriven]

Mallow's a way better character... I like Geno, he's kind of like the Seshomaru/Sasuke type of character, and that's always going to be an appealing archetype... but that's all Geno is--an archetype. Mallow actually has depth and growth and a reason for the player to be empathetic of his situation.

SMRPG is still my favorite Mario RPG, though. Its more traditional battle system is more enjoyable for me than Paper Mario or M&L (which are both still great), and I actually really like the art direction.

[E-Man]

Mario and Luigi is the far superior game in every way.

What about the Paper Mario games? Even though the Mario & Luigi games have overworld exploration more akin to a usual Mario game and the battle system (particularly the counters and Bros. Moves) offers a lot more action, the Paper Mario games comes close to it. A lot of it's environments are enjoyable/creative, it's vast cast is extremely memorable, and the writing/storytelling is insightful as it is amusing. Plus, there's several creative puzzles in that game I always look forward to solving.

Anyway, the biggest admirable trait I have for the Paper Mario games is that it's not afraid to be different. Besides the fact that it tries different styles of gameplay to the point of actually risking critical and fan reception, it's whole premise sets it apart from any Mario game (or nearly any game for that matter) ever since the first game. Even though the idea of a Mario game made of paper sounds ridiculous on… Well… Paper, it actually makes for a fun RPG that tests the limits of paper itself.

Sure, I like the Mario & Luigi games as much as the next guy, but the Paper Mario games are in a special place for me since they defined me from an early age and possesses a gimmick that captivates me to this very day.

[Kriven]

Honestly, I would like the M&L franchise a lot more if they broke away from the... well, Mario & Luigi gimmick and gave us an actual party system.

[TomGuycott]

One the topic of Mallow and Geno, let me compare them to a pair of SNES RPG contemporaries: Kain and FuSoYa from FFIV.

FuSoYa, like Geno, is powerful, mystical, and arguably the most connected to the main plot of the story, having extensive knowledge of what is wrong and who the main enemy is.

Kain and Mallow, on the other hand, are more relatable characters with far more interesting and explored story arcs.

So in the end, I guess what is probably winning Geno fans over is his design, power and mystical qualities rather than story power alone.

[Helmo]

Honestly, I would like the M&L franchise a lot more if they broke away from the... well, Mario & Luigi gimmick and gave us an actual party system.

Then it's not the same game at all???

[Kriven]

It definitely can be. The same battle mechanics, world progression, stats... The only change would be swapping out Luigi for Yoshi if I felt so inclined, or Mario for Toad. The battle system could still revolve around two party members and even include a plethora of team attacks depending on who you have partnered together.



Totally different games?

[Zero Kirby]

It definitely can be. The same battle mechanics, world progression, stats... The only change would be swapping out Luigi for Yoshi if I felt so inclined, or Mario for Toad. The battle system could still revolve around two party members and even include a plethora of team attacks depending on who you have partnered together.



Totally different games?

I had actually been thinking about this recently and I think I know a good reason this isn't a thing

In this example Luigi is swapped out for Peach. That's all fine and dandy so Mario uses A and Peach uses B

What about switching Mario out for Peach to get Luigi and Peach attacks

Now Peach uses A where she earlier used B

I know this is a lame problem (and not everyone would get tripped up by it) but one of the big things in the series is that Mario is controlled with A and Luigi is controlled with B, and having characters that swap which buttons they use would kinda go against that.

Of course maybe Peach can only replace Luigi, so characters are forced into particular slots

BUT DS games can use four buttons so a four-character party shouldn't be that big a deal. Four-button Action Commands worked in Partners in Time...

[Koopaul]

Ah now you guys are heading into my dream fan game that I've always been dreaming up.

I ran into that same problem Zero Kirby. So I had it so that you could never swap out Mario. He's always A and everyone else is B. It would be too difficult to make "Bros" moves for that many different combinations anyway.

I figure it should be similar to how Paper Mario's party system works but with mechanics from M&L... a fusion of Paper Mario and M&L. With a party that included Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Wario, Donkey Kong, etc. The ultimate Mario RPG!

Aw... but it'll never happen.

[Kriven]

Aw... but it'll never happen.

Well why not? Maybe a collaborative effort here could get it done.

[Koopaul]

I've tried smaller collaborative efforts. Never get anywhere.

It's funny I think the community was more motivated to do stuff like that years ago. I remember the M&L spriting craze. Starpower and Frario did a ginormous collaboration with that Wario and Waluigi sheet. Sheesh what happened? I rarely see people working as a team anymore.

Er sorry this is way off topic.

Back on topic: I actually enjoyed Super Paper Mario despite it being heavily critsized.