BLOODSTAINED - Koji Igarashi's Newest Project Unveiled

[TomGuycott]

It doesn't matter in regards to games like chess, checkers, or strategy games.  With those games, you literally have all day to sit there and plan each move.  If you leave the game for 3 hours, and come back, the game's state has not changed.

Someone's never heard of speed chess.



In all seriousness though, you are correct that Chess does not necessarily require fast thinking. However, what you are ignoring is the fact that the thing that is comparable to chess is the rigidity, and not just to the player.

The rigid nature of the game means that when you perform an action, you will have a similar reaction every time. Enemies have predictable, if difficult patterns, no different than chess. This applies to ALL enemies. Medusa heads are only considered difficult because their pattern is trickier than an enemy who walks straight at you, and they can usually indefinitely respawn. It is basically like competing against a never-ending line of Bishops in chess, but the Bishops zig-zag, can only go forward and there is only one spawned at a time from a specific spot.

You also complain about the absurd difficulty of bosses like Death. Even they have their crippling weaknesses, you just have to be skillful enough to exploit them:



Basically what this strategy entails is 1) Finding the holy water. 2) KEEPING the Holy Water, which means you cannot die throughout the stage. 3) Finding at least a II Block, which allows you to throw two at a time. and 4) Reaching the boss without losing too many hearts to use the strategy. So even then, not easy, but a strategy nonetheless.


What this is boiling down to is that this game is just not for you, which is fine. If you added Contra-like controls and weapon freedom to the game, it would be like letting one player in chess use a remote controlled car as their piece and allowed them to run over all the other pieces they liked at their leisure. And if you argue that both players could just use the car instead, then that's a completely different game.

[Kriven]

And if you argue that both players could just use the car instead, then that's a completely different game.

Doesn't this work counter to everything else you've said in defense of Castlevania, though? At least continuing to use the Chess allegory, it would... I mean, in Chess, both sides have access to the same units, strategies, and abilities. This isn't so in Castlevania, where one side is limited in movement and offensive capabilities, while the other has dozens of units with different attack strategies, many of which can not only attack as a group, but to return to respawn an indefinite number of times.

Both players using a truck to crush chess pieces is way more the same game to chess than Castlevania is... and claiming that leveling the playing field would make Castlevania a different game just goes to show how different it actually is from chess.

[TomGuycott]

By that logic, nothing should be comparable to chess except chess itself, because only chess can be exactly like chess in every way. Same goes for Contra, which Koh keeps calling back to as an example of a good game (which it is). You can't make a game LIKE Contra then because only Contra is Contra.


My comparison to chess isn't the game itself, but rather how pieces move. Pieces move in very meticulous ways, and they can't move outside those affixed patterns. Picture Simon Belmont being something akin to a Knight. Not the most powerful unit, bound by awkward movement patterns, but certainly more viable than a Pawn, which is something akin to the Zombies or Spear Knights. Medusas, as I said, could be considered comparable to a Bishop, moving in long-reaching diagonal patterns that can make your life miserable, but have only those certain patterns. A decent example of the Rook could be the Axe Knight, a powerful foe, but whose strengths like in only one dimension at a time (in this case always the horizontal dimension, as they only attack forward and back). The closest thing I could find to something comparable to the Queen would be the Flea Men, who have freedom of movement surpassing most basic enemies and of course the player, but if they act foolishly they can be easily taken down like any enemy.


Lastly, the level playing field does exist in a game. Any competitive game where two players or two computer controlled opponents can use the same character or patterns in an equal play field is a perfectly equal game, and probably more comparable to chess in regard to an equal setup. These games are most limited to fighting games, or Pong. In fact, a fighting game is MORE equal than chess at the start before taking skill into account, because in chess one player always has to move first, while in a fighter both players can move at the same time.

[Gors]

It doesn't matter in regards to games like chess, checkers, or strategy games.  With those games, you literally have all day to sit there and plan each move.  If you leave the game for 3 hours, and come back, the game's state has not changed.
see Speed Chess

Stiff controls become a problem with real time games.  Games that require quick reflexes, always have continuous action, etc.  Input lag (not to be confused with an attack delay, where the character's winding up an attack, or recovering from just performing one) , awkward physics, tank controls, and etc. can be very detrimental to not only the overall experience, but to the current play of the game to the point the player dies or takes damage when they really shouldn't have. 
This is true for terribly coded games, but you can perfectly defend yourself in Castlevania, given that you know its rules (and it really sounds like you don't

With chess, checkers, and the like, you have no fear of this.  There are no enemies actively trying to kill you, or some kind of ticking time bomb going off.  However, in games like Castlevania where you need quick reflexes to survive at all, and have to do a bunch of precise platforming, stiff controls are simply inexcusable, and will likely get you killed.  The Medusa Heads and the Death fight on Castlevania 1 are only hard because of the terrible control.  It's what we call Fake Difficulty.
Again, see Speed Chess. As for Castlevania, you do have plenty of reflexes (sometimes it's a little bit lower, I agree) to defend yourself - you can predict all enemy patterns and jump-attack accordingly. You are punished for not being able to dodge or counter attack. This happens in any game, and that doesn't make it unfair. You cannot jump and attack 30º downwards while airdodging: it's not in the game rules.

Now, this all isn't to say you need a million controls, but rather, controls that keep the player in control of their actions, reflect common sense, and allow for self defense in any situation.  This means, denying the ability to attack in midair, for example, not only violates common sense, but also denies self defense.
Have you tried jumping and pressing B in midair in Castlevania? That is midair attack. Up+B subweapons also help attacking airborne foes, so this just sounds like moot complaints,

If you want an example of a game that has perfect control, but is still fairly difficult, look no further than the Contra games.  You can shoot exactly like you'd expect to be able to, have full control of your character, and it's still very challenging.
Contra is challenging because the game is tailored to your maneuver. Much like Castlevania is tailored to Simon's movements.

At least continuing to use the Chess allegory, it would... I mean, in Chess, both sides have access to the same units, strategies, and abilities. This isn't so in Castlevania, where one side is limited in movement and offensive capabilities, while the other has dozens of units with different attack strategies, many of which can not only attack as a group, but to return to respawn an indefinite number of times.

You are reading to this too literally. We aren't saying Castlevania IS chess. Of course it is not. What we are trying to say is that each piece has their own rules (patterns) of moving and thus you can predict and punish them accordingly.


But it really sounds like you don't really care about learning the game's rules/way of thinking and prefers overwriting them with your mindset instead. Which isn't wrong per se, but it's really narrow-minded for someone who makes games.

Since you're really fixed on your thoughts I won't force Castlevania to you though. I just want to back this project asap and enjoy both game modes.

btw I am not a god Castlevania player by all means, but I understand the game principles and I enjoy it.

---

I'm also not saying that Classicvania is infinitely better than Metroidvania period, I am just justifying that Classic is not a piece of shit like others think it is.

[Koh]

I don't think it's a piece of shit, pretty good actually, just its stiff controls suck. Once you've played games with much better control, in the same genre and same category (arcade, platformer, or whatever), downgrading to something that's unnecessarily much more stiff than it needs to be just sucks.

Mario came before Castlevania, and is a time-tested, approved way to handle jumping control, for example. So if you've played something like that, then go to Haunted Castle, Castlevania 1-3, or Rondo of Blood, that's an immediate stiff feeling you face, because it's missing such a simple element that was made a standard before they even existed.

I don't think anyone here really dislikes the linear style. In fact I've seen some support for another game like that, but only if it had controls like Super Castlevania 4, which I agree with.

[Kriven]

I don't think it's a piece of shit, pretty good actually, just its stiff controls suck.  Once you've played games with much better control, in the same genre and same category (arcade, platformer, or whatever), downgrading to something that's unnecessarily much more stiff than it needs to be just sucks.  

Mario came before Castlevania, and is a time-tested, approved way to handle jumping control, for example.  So if you've played something like that, then go to Haunted Castle, Castlevania 1-3, or Rondo of Blood, that's an immediate stiff feeling you face, because it's missing such a simple element that was made a standard before they even existed.

I don't think anyone here really dislikes the linear style. In fact I've seen some support for another game like that, but only if it had controls like Super Castlevania 4, which I agree with.

I didn't like the chess comparison earlier for the same reason I don't like the Mario comparison now. Super Mario Bros. and Castlevania are not really even attempting to be similar games.

Super Mario Bros. is literally about physics, and those first Mario games from Donkey Kong on up through Super Mario Bros. 3 (and then again later on with the advent of 3D platforming) was all about physics. Look, now we have gravity (Donkey Kong), look, now we have traction (Mario Bros.), look, now we have momentum (Super Mario Bros.), look, now we have vertical space (Super Mario Bros. 2), look, we polished everything (Super Mario Bros. 3).

Castlevania isn't about physics. That isn't its gimmick.

[Vipershark]

Bloodstained finally added an option to back with Paypal, which you can get to here: https://fulfillment.fangamer.com/bloodstained
I notified Gorsal and he's ecstatic.

[Omegajak]

Looking at the Kickstarter right now, and it's already made it though three stretch goals. Won't be long until it reaches the voice acting goal.
And that will be a good thing because David Hayter's the man. He deserves this after being replaced by a freaking celebrity.

But I wish they weren't using the Unreal Engine as it's getting overused now. Those mock-ups look too awesome to be concept art.
Still look froward to it though. Can't help but love the designs of everything, and it's not often you see the Buer in modern media.

Woah woah woah. Are you trying to claim there's another white male who deserves to be Big Boss' clone more than the guy who played the pivitol role of a amazing TV series about war, terrorism, and espionage?

Please sir direct me to this talent better than Keifer Sutherland *points gun at Dolphman* and while were at it, you're going to tell me where the target is.....


OnTopic: was watching Game Grumps the other day. They're apparently playing SoTN to help donate for BloodStained. I'm fairly impressed with how easily Danny feels at home in SoTN (despite not beating any of the early boss battles.) How many people like SoTN. I remember when we were all kids this place was still TSR and people were really down with SoTN's GBA sequels. Back then they seemed to be the undeniable popular way to play Inputjokeherevania. I personally restarted Portrait of Ruin. For whatever reason though I'm feeling more inclined to play Valdis Story Abyssal City which plays much like a smarter version of Metroid and Castlevania becuase combat is super deep you have the choice of 4 characters to play as and the puzzles aren't just *You don't have this item yet, see ya later.*  Has anyone else played it maybe someone better versed in scribe could share some thoughts?

[Dolphman]

I was saying being replaced by a celebrity made everyone pissed due to how common celebrity voice acting is in anything these days. 
Don't get me wrong, Keifer Sutherland is awesome in anything he's in. But we're getting too worked up being on the Konami hate-wagon.
But I do plan of getting Metal Gear Solid 5 for my brother as he's being a fan since he bought the first game on PlayStation.
Still though, David Hayter being cast as the Antagonist for Bloodstained looks like a huge middle finger to Konami.

As for SOTN, I got it on Xbox Live and really enjoyed it. Before that, I grabbed Dracula X Chronicles due to being a remake of Rondo of Blood.
That and it contains remastered versions of the original game and SOTN, having a new English dub with less corny dialog.
I know we love "WHAT IS A MAN?" but some things do need redubbing when then old ones can sound embarrassing.

Also, Bloodstained has made it though all major stretch goals. Now with minor ones for 8-bit remixes of the composer's music.
Wish they did 16-bit remixes too, mean look how many good ones there are on Youtube using game soundfonts.

[Vipershark]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP
Bloodstained has officially passed Yooka-Laylee in funding with less backers and in less days!
HAHA EAT SHIT BANJO FANS

[Kosheh]

HAHA EAT SHIT BANJO FANS

As a casual fan of the banjo (Dueling Banjos made very good use of the instrument, I must say) I am deeply offended by this statement. ):

[Kriven]

can't we be fans of both 3:

[Omegajak]

If people can still non-nonchalantly hate on Sonic? No. Not really. *draws a line in the sand.* BLOODSTAINED.

[Vipershark]

ONLY ONE GAME CAN REIGN SUPREME

#teammiriam

[Gors]

I can only pick one option and I'd rather choose the waifu material coolest option

#teammiriam