Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam

[MrYoshbert]

So here's something absolutely nobody saw coming. Two completely different styles of Mario RPGs are crossing over for the very first time.

Spoiler

[Omegajak]

Most Insane Part. No Paper Luigi. Somebody had to say it.

[Jermungandr]

Well.

I really like the name anyways.

[Shade]

Could someone tell me how I feel about this? I honestly have no idea.

[E-Man]

Alright, so allow me to share my thoughts on this game. To me, I thought on paper (pun slightly intended) sounded like a fan project. You'd probably would have imagine how dumbfounded I was when I realized it was a real thing. At first, I was entirely skeptical if it was any good or not (especially since it looked a bit Sticker Star-ish from the thumbnail on Gamexplain), but I dived in with low expectations…. Admittedly, I did skim through the comments before watching it to see if it was any good, so my expectations were a bit higher than they initially were.

To get this out of the way, that trailer…

Blew my expectations clean out of the water!

With that said, here are my thoughts, impressions, and overall speculation from this trailer (I'll try to keep information related to the gameplay video and Mario Wiki out of the initial thoughts until after I'm done).


- So, it looks like a fair amount of this game is set in the real (or real as far as Mario and video game standards go) Mushroom Kingdom. Due to the size of the thumbnail, I thought that scene was set in Warm Fuzzy Plains, so you could see where I got the original Sticker Star impression from.

- They're using the same style of text boxes found in Dream Team as opposed to the ones found in the Paper Mario games. This wouldn't be notable if it wasn't for the fact that even the paper characters (Goomba and Peach to be specific) use this text box style. Then again, these instances took place in the "real world," so the text boxes could be different in the paper world (especially since the trailer did not show any characters talking there).

- The two Bowsers meeting is quite brilliant (although predictable). They don't appear to like each other that much (as evidenced from the cartoon fight cloud), so it makes me wonder if they'll team up (much like Bowser did with his younger self) or just remain rivals. By the way, on a slightly unrelated note, I'm having trouble determining if the Bowser's Castle in the footage is a real version or the paper one. While the textures lack any significant paper ascetics, the pillar on the right is noticably polygonal (on of the hallmarks of the paper craft style) and the flame windows look a bit uneven. Speaking of the flame windows, I thought they contained little stain-glass Bowsers the first time watching it. If that were the case, it would lend to Bowser's narcissism very well! XD

- There's not much to talk about Paper Bowser in this. They reused his appearance from Sticker Star, so the horns and spikes are yellow, while the body is orange. I was honestly hoping they would give him a slight recoloring job to match the current Bowser, but it's not a big deal. What is a big deal is if we're going to get the same flat (pun intended) Bowser we got from the fourth Paper Mario game. Even thought he doesn't really speak (with the exception of that roar he possibly made), the "real" Bowser said that his insults are knockoffs. Therefore, it is implied that Bowser does speak in this game in regards to the trailer.

- Not a notable point, but if you look at the fight cloud closely, it looks like the "real" Bowser got the worst of that scuffle based on how his limbs are reacting and the quick partial glance of his face near the end. Perhaps this implies that the "knockoff" is, ironically, stronger than the original? If so, this probably means that Paper Bowser convinces the "real" Bowser to join his side instead of the other way around or the two of them realizing the team up potential at the same time.

- From what the trailer is showing, the paper characters came to the "real world" first. I take it that the meeting at Peach's Castle is early in the game, so it's likely that the characters never visited the paper world yet. Speaking of Peach's Castle, this (along with other scenes) confirms that the game takes place in Mushroom Kingdom proper.

- The gameplay and camera angle are not unlike Dream Team, so this game feels a little like that game with Paper Mario thrown in there with modified controls. I'm not saying that's entirely a bad thing (especially since I'm extremely fond of Dream Team compared to the other three previous entries for personal reasons), but it's clear that (at least so far in regards to this build) this is a pure Mario & Luigi game instead of also featuring Paper Mario's gameplay and camera angle.

- The way Paper Mario flips into paper mode looks a little off to me. There is only one 90 degree rotation and he remains stiff when moving about. If you compare it with how it is in the Thousand Year Door, he settles into each position with several spins and bends a bit in the direction he walks. What's even more jarring is that (much like the mini Mario ability in Dream Team) it is made into more of a context sensitive kind of deal. This likely means that you're unable to use paper mode anywhere on the overworld, which not only kills the chance for experimentation, but also the explanation point makes it obvious to show where you can use this ability instead of encouraging the player to find these locations without that kind of help. I don't mind handholding in games too much, but this is starting to get a little bit silly. :/

- Rescuing Toads again, huh? I'm getting Sticker Star vibes from this… Still, this is just the first area of the game, so it's too soon to say if we're going to get Toads from the paper world and nothing else.

- After looking at the HP levels for the playable characters, it seems that Paper Mario has less health than the "real" Bros. Much like the babies and Bowser, it's obvious right off the bat that Paper Mario will have a different stat distribution where he excels at a few stats and suffers in others. I'm not sure what those stats might be, but I'm thinking speed is likely a strength, while defense and power are weak. Also, to further cement how this is more Mario & Luigi than Paper Mario, Paper Mario's heath stat is 17 instead of 15 (HP and FP are raised by intervals of 5 in the Paper Mario games in case you guys forgotten). Still, it could also mean that Paper Mario was damaged in a fight and didn't bother to heal himself. Speaking of damage, maybe Paper Mario could also have elemental weaknesses considering what he's made of. I imagine that fire and sharp object will make short work out of him.

- There's a new command where the playable characters are able to slide. Much like paper mode, I think it's also context sensitive. Still, I like it since it offers something new for the RPG interpretation of the Bros. to do and is reminicent of Mario's outings on some of his 3-D platformers (especially Super Mario 64).

- Like how the Toad folds himself up to allow "real" Mario to store him on his person. It makes me wonder if Paper Mario is able to pull off something similar if he needs to hide.

- When I first saw the part with the giant spring, I thought that it took place in the paper world. After taking a second look, it appears that there are only paper sets in the "real" desert, which lead to my confusion. It's likely that these are already scattered about and/or you are able to summon these at will (in context sensitive zones or otherwise). Still, I'm hoping that you're bale to visit the paper world and it'll work in a a similar way to how the light world and dark world work in a Link to the Past.

- Throughout the desert, there is a timer that counts down. I'm not sure what it means, but since it's showing the Bros. saving Toads again, that's probably connected to it (especially since the timer starts at 19 minutes at the very least). I'm guessing this is either an optional time attack-like challenge or you're required to find the Toads in a time limit during some parts of the game. In the case of the latter, I hope it doesn't mean that a Game Over in any way, shape, or form results from a failure and you're able to retry the challenge in a less intimidating way.

- Barring the buildings of Little Fungi Town and Toad Town as it appears in Partners in Time, conventional Toad Houses appear for the first time in a Mario & Luigi game. I'm wondering what they could be used for since they seem a bit too generic and out of the way to actually be NPC dwellings. They're either some type of place to hold items or this game's shops and inns on the road. Either those options, or they might be involved with the Toad rescuing puzzle.

- Mario and Luigi use their Super Hammer-like hammers that they always used in this game series, while Paper Mario uses the iconic wooden hammer. While it's not clear that he'll get a new type later in the game, there is an attack where Mario, Luigi, and Paper Mario stack on each other to deliver a powerful shockwave. By the way, this is not related to the footage, but this attack reminds me a little of this one scene in the Nightmare Before Christmas where Mr. Hyde asks Jack Skellington about the stocking during the town meeting song. Seeing the Mario Bros. stacking on top of each other makes me think of those little Hydes stacked on top of the big one.

- We take a glimpse at the battle system and see a bunch of Paper Marios attack a gang of Koopas (we get to fight not only the original versions of enemies, but also their paper counterparts). As far as I know, Paper Mario doesn't exactly split into multiple entities in that fashion, so it's likely that Paper Mario has some special attacks based on concepts involving paper (my guess is that the multiple Marios are based on chains of paper dolls). Also, a star flew to the bottom screen after that attack was done, so it's possible that badges in the style of the previous two Mario and Luigi games are back. While that system is interesting, I'd rather have a badge system from the first two Paper Mario games.

- How Paper Mario attacks and the way the paper enemies are defeated are based on how they are in Sticker Star. Not exactly sure if that's a bad thing yet, but at least stickers don't appear anywhere in this so far, which means that you'll be bale to attack with Paper Mario in a similar way to the first two games. Also, there are two coin styles, but I doubt that it'll have any effect on the gameplay… Still, if it allows for any jokes and situations in the same vein as the current exchange rate of Beanbean Coins, then I'm up for that!

- Boss battles behave like they do in Dream Team, which I'm all up for. (Just between you and me, interacting with bosses in that game is a lot more fun and feels more like a minigame, which puts virtually all Paper Mario battle styles to shame.) ALso, not only is Paper Mario is doing that plane thing again (a nice callback to the Thousand Year Door that I realized a bit later), but he seems to serve a similar role to Starlow in which he helps the Bros. escape unavoidable attacks. By the way, Petey puking sludgeballs provides a good reference to his roots (pun not intended)!

- At first I thought that cylinder things was how Mario and Luigi are able to travel between the "real world" and the paper world, but when it turned into a giant cardboard hammer, my jaw just dropped. This game certainly does capitalize on the paper aesthetic more than the actual Paper Mairo games! Then again, it is necessary since there needs to be a difference between the "real" Mairo Bros. and Paper Mario.

- The tennis attack used on Petey reminds me a lot of Sling-a-Thing from Sticker Star. They made it clear that Paper Mario's color is orange, which does not bid well for the possibility of a playable Paper Luigi. Otherwise, the tennis racket would be red. Anyway, compared to the Koopa fight, the numbers used in the attack are considerably low. I know that's probably the nature of multi-hit attacks, but it's either suggesting that the Petey fight takes place early in the game or the game also incorporates the original (or close enough considering Sticker Star's involvement) Paper Mario battle system, which uses small numbers.

- Papercraft Mario!? I honestly wasn't expecting that! From how it plays out and the use of CGI Mario and Luigi models, I'm wiling to bet that this is what replaces the giant battles from the last two games (not that I mind it in even the slightest). There appears to be two meters in this, which I thought were both separate HP bars. Upon further inspection, the Toad one decreases with pretty much every move, so it's probably like FP or SP. With all that said, this is a good change of pace from the giant battles, which are probably going to get really stale if they keep using that same concept over and over again.


This is what I gathered from the trailer. Overall, it's a solid game and looks very enjoyable and creative. As far as the art style goes, I'm a bit puzzled by why they didn't make fresh Mario and Luigi sprites instead of reusing the ones from Dream Team. s much as I find that style refreshing when it first came out, it certainly is odd when you consider that they made an entirely new sprite style for Bowser's Inside Story when they could have reused the one from Partners in Time (another entry to the series that was released on the same system) and no one would have honestly complain. Since they're doing that now, it just seems a slight bit lazy on Alphadream's part. While we're on that subject, they're reusing a lot of assets and concepts from Sticker Star, which makes me a bit uncomfortable. Knowing that the M&L team is fond of diving into Mario's history and reusing whatever characters they could find, this is probably nothing to worry about. Still, I just wish that the could have made the paper characters animate like they do in the Thousand Year Door. It's only a small nitpick and it's likely just hardware limitations, though. Either way, I'm keeping my eye on this game to see how it turns out sicne it shows a lot of promise!

I would have said more than that initially, but I stayed up way too late at the time (it's even worse since I'm a bit sick at the moment).

[E-Man]

Well, MrYoshbert, you certainly beat me to te punch when you created this thread, which I feel very silly about because I made my own topic without realizing this until it was too late. 

Not sure if it'll do you guys any good, but in the thread I made, I went over several details in regards to the trailer. It's a bit of along read, but I covered virtually everything about it.

EDIT: Never mind! My thread is now merged with this topic, so life's good now.

[Omegajak]

Well, MrYoshbert, you certainly beat me to te punch when you created this thread, which I feel very silly about because I made my own topic without realizing this until it was too late. 

Not sure if it'll do you guys any good, but in the thread I made, I went over several details in regards to the trailer. It's a bit of along read, but I covered virtually everything about it.

  Sigh..... TELL US E-Man tell us interesting things about this game. (Did you cover why there's no Paper Luigi I'm going to be backhanded for a second and tell you to shut up if you can't explain logically why Luigi despite not being the hero (But is still present in teh paper timeline!!!!!!!!!) isn't present (And don't be a smart ass and say Mario's THEIR partner like everyone's a partner to Mario in the Paper games! Don't do that I will end you, that's not a reason. No you're not Nintendo but if you try to poison me with BS I'll look at that as an attempt on my life and end you.) ~imagine I said that aside with spooky music as it zoomed in on my avatar.

[recme]

  Sigh..... TELL US E-Man tell us interesting things about this game. (Did you cover why there's no Paper Luigi I'm going to be backhanded for a second and tell you to shut up if you can't explain logically why Luigi despite not being the hero (But is still present in teh paper timeline!!!!!!!!!) isn't present (And don't be a smart ass and say Mario's THEIR partner like everyone's a partner to Mario in the Paper games! Don't do that I will end you, that's not a reason. No you're not Nintendo but if you try to poison me with BS I'll look at that as an attempt on my life and end you.) ~imagine I said that aside with spooky music as it zoomed in on my avatar.

...

anywho, i've already gave my input on this crossover in the game discussion thread, but i might as well say it here. its just paper mario in m&l rather than paper mario AND m&l. if more paper mario things are shown, (like, maybe some ideas from the paper mario battle system...?) i'll stop bitching and get the game :v

[Kriven]

My opinion of this game has already been spoken by a master of language:

[SplatKidSquid]

Haters gunna hate

I honestly love the potential of this game. Sure the styles clash a bit but man does it look fun

[Koopaul]

This is most confusing when you think about it. This means that the Paper Mario series is an alternate universe, which means certain characters (like Goombella and Vivian) don't exist in the same world as other characters (Fawful and Popple).

But does this mean that neither M&L series and Paper Mario series take place in the same universe as the main Mario games?

Is every spinoff an alternate universe?

I-I'm so confused...

[TomGuycott]

I thought it was obvious that they did. Lots of stuff in each game series is directly contradicting something appearing or established in another.

Or it is just a plot device to explain it.

[MrYoshbert]

There seems to be a lot of fear-mongering about this game "killing" the Paper Mario series or whatever.

It's worth mentioning that this is officially a pure Mario & Luigi title (hell, the M&L brand even has top billing); all of the M&L stuff (from what was shown) has higher precedence. The Paper Mario cast is just taking a backseat and coming along for the ride.

I'm certain we'll be getting a true Paper Mario later down the line; Intelligent Systems probably has their hands full with all of that Fire Emblem stuff. Heh, now I'm expecting them to return the favor and make Luigi a partner in the next Paper Mario game (if it even has partners at all).

[E-Man]

This is most confusing when you think about it. This means that the Paper Mario series is an alternate universe, which means certain characters (like Goombella and Vivian) don't exist in the same world as other characters (Fawful and Popple).

But does this mean that neither M&L series and Paper Mario series take place in the same universe as the main Mario games?

Is every spinoff an alternate universe?

I-I'm so confused...

I was thinking how this would work entirely myself. Even before this game was released, my theory was that the actual events of the Paper Mario games actually did happen. It's just that the paper world is used as a tool for retelling the story and the paper like elements (such as Paper Mode) are used to add a little fun to the story and otherwise exaggerations of what actually happened. As far as I'm concerned, the Paper Mario characters are real.

As for why they are going for this direction, it's either based on what I previously said or it's their last ditch effort to get away with inserting original content into Mario RPGs. Basically, if they convince Shigeru Miyamoto that the games all takes place in different universes apart from the official one, then they might get him off their backs, which means we'll be one step closer to the Paper Mario we always dreamed! Still, it is a bit of a shaky plan and Shigeru Miyamoto still is able to shoot it down if he wants. On top of that, it's a little awkward to the continuity if the Mario & Luigi games take place in a different universe compare to other Mario games. In addition to the other Mario references scattered about, if you recall Partners in Time, Kamek mentions how he kidnapped the Mario Babies (a reference to the more or less mainstream Yoshi's Island). With that said, I'm not sure if it means that the Mairo & Luigi universe is the same one as the offical one or the Mairo & Luigi universe does a very good job paralleling and emulating the events from the official games. It gets even more confusing if you consider that Paper Mario is already referenced in the Mario & Luigi games (specifically the first one). I know that the block that appeared in Paper Mario is probably nothing more than a little Easter Egg, but it does imply that the events of that game actually did happen in one way or another.

    Sigh..... TELL US E-Man tell us interesting things about this game. (Did you cover why there's no Paper Luigi I'm going to be backhanded for a second and tell you to shut up if you can't explain logically why Luigi despite not being the hero (But is still present in teh paper timeline!!!!!!!!!) isn't present (And don't be a smart ass and say Mario's THEIR partner like everyone's a partner to Mario in the Paper games! Don't do that I will end you, that's not a reason. No you're not Nintendo but if you try to poison me with BS I'll look at that as an attempt on my life and end you.) ~imagine I said that aside with spooky music as it zoomed in on my avatar.

I touched a little bit on that in my analysis of the trailer. If I were to touch on the other bits and pieces of media associated with this new game, I would have been a lot more in depth and share my thoughts on what the heck Paper Luigi is up to. Right now, I'm not only going to use the trailer to base my new thoughts on the lack of Paper Luigi, but also the bits of information I found recently. From what I gathered, the prospect of a playable Paper Luigi doesn't look possible. The first sign is the color assigned to Paper Mario. If it was like how it was in Partners in Time, then Paper Mario would have red as his color instead of that shade of orange. While it doesn't exactly prove that Paper Luigi isn't playable right off the bat, it would be nice if the orange was a little more red. That way, if Paper Luigi is playable, then he wouldn't have to use an outlandish color choice, such as blue. The other evidence that shows that Paper Luigi is unlikely a playable character is the gameplay. While it makes sense to give Paper Luigi the X button, I recently found out that the dash feature (something that I'm okay with since it offers movement speed and puzzle opportunities) occupies that spot. Even though getting rid of that mechanic to make way for Paper Luigi will make the fans happy, I don't think it'll be that easy to drop a mechanic of that nature so easily without finding a way to have both the dash feature and Paper Luigi coexist naturally.

On top of that, when I looking at gameplay footage, I was thinking that Paper Luigi isn't playable at this point to streamline overworld exploration. You see, Mario is only able to progress on a higher ledge as long as Luigi is also up there. That's mostly how it is in every Mario & Luigi game as long as the Bros. are together. With Paper Mario tagging behind, you now have a third character you have to manually get up on a ledge or else Mario and Luigi are unable to move forward. From the footage, I noticed how cumbersome it is to press three different buttons just to get the team on top of a simple ledge. Just imagine having to press four different buttons to do that kind of action if Paper Luigi is thrown into the mix. :/ I know it's terrible not to have him playable (at least this point in time), but sometimes Nintendo (and pretty much any video game developer for that matter) has to make a decision to either be awesome or practical. I'm not saying that it's impossible to put Paper Luigi in there, but they honestly need to make it work in a comfortable way. If you look at Partners in Time, there are four playable characters in that game; however, the Mario Babies didn't follow behind the adults to make simple platforming a major pain in the rear. Instead, you are not only able to control each pair separately at will, but also carry the babies to simplify moving across the overworld with both sets of characters. To allow Paper Luigi (or just Paper Mario for that matter) to move with the other characters without being a burden, then a similar system is required to store the Paper Bros. (the way the Paper Toads fold up works nicely here) until they are needed. Either that or the paper characters should jump automatically up ledges (and possibly teleport if they are too far behind), much like the partners do in the first two Paper Mario games. That way, it places another Paper Mario reference in there that actually benefits the gameplay!

Now, as for where Paper Luigi is, I only have a few thoughts to go by since none of the media makes his fate any clear. It's unlikely that he'll be cut (no pun intended) from this game due to his presence in that series (espically if Super Paper Mario is taken into account); however, if he's not even going to be playable later on in the game, then he probably holds some story importance. Even though it would be a huge disappointment if they go this way, making Paper Luigi nearly useless would result in some interesting fridge brilliance. Also, in the comments section of a YouTube video related to the game (I don't remember if it was one of Gamexplain's videos or Nintendo's official trailer), some guys are talking about how Luigi is either kidnapped or the villain (they even stated that he's working for Popple under his Mr. L alter ego). Still, there's still the possibility of Paper Luigi pulling another Waffle Kingdom misadventure where he tells the playable Bros. about what he's up to behind their backs... Regardless of what road they take for Paper Luigi, I honestly hope Paper Luigi has some hilarious reactions to the "real" Luigi's gibberish and silent protagonist treatment since the former is awfully chatty (especially when you consider all interpretations of the RPG Mario Bros. aren't typically like that).

There seems to be a lot of fear-mongering about this game "killing" the Paper Mario series or whatever.  

It's worth mentioning that this is officially a pure Mario & Luigi title (hell, the M&L brand even has top billing); all of the M&L stuff (from what was shown) has higher precedence.  The Paper Mario cast is just taking a backseat and coming along for the ride.

I'm certain we'll be getting a true Paper Mario later down the line; Intelligent Systems probably has their hands full with all of that Fire Emblem stuff.  Heh, now I'm expecting them to return the favor and make Luigi a partner in the next Paper Mario game (if it even has partners at all).

I actually touched on this in the Gamer Lounge topic. Instead of making a recap of that, I'll simply show you a link.

http://www.vg-resource.com/thread-25335-...#pid591694

If anything, this is probably the last Mario & Luigi game because I'm concerned that Alphadream is starting to run out of solid ideas before the new Mario & Luigi games after this one go to pot. Speaking of Intelligent Systems, I'm wondering if they had a hand in this new game and if they're going to employ some ideas and references from this game (and other Mario & Luigi games for that matter) in the eventual Paper Mario game they'll create. Already, they used two or three Beanish characters in the Thousand Year Door and there's even references to Chuckola Cola and Fawful in the second and third games receptively (but those last two examples are probably in there due to localization on Nintendo of America's part). With that said, I'd like to see characters like Broque Monsieur make an appearance in a Paper Mario game. Also, I'm wondering if this game is Alphadream's way of testing the waters of the Paper Mario series, so they can move onto developing games for that in Intelligent Systems' place. I'm not saying this is what's going on, but it is an interesting thought since they understand how to make a Mario RPG better than Intelligent Systems (with some of its employees actually working on Super Mario RPG).


Now, to wrap this all up for now, I'd like to talk about this piece of official artwork.



Please tell me that I'm not he only one somewhat bothered by the fact that Paper Mario has three visible knuckles as opposed to two. While I think I know why they did that (it's to show that Paper Mario has five fingers), it's a little bit silly since Paper Mario always has five fingers in spite of only two knuckles. If anything, the additional knuckle just makes the hand look cluttered and it's more or less assumed that the thrid knuckle is obscured by how the hand is rotated (even if there are front hand poses that have two knuckles and five fingers at the same time). While it shouldn't be that big of a deal, it's made even more foolish if you take a look at the in game sprites for Paper Mario. If you look closely, he still has his two visible knuckles there.

As for Paper Mario's shadow, I was going to take about it in my original analysis before I forgotten about it due to how sick and tired I was when writing it. It makes sense for the paper characters to have those kinds of shadows, but they could honestly look better. Besides, the current shadow makes me think the characters are made of cardboard instead of paper. Anyway, instead of a rectangle, a better idea is to use a very thin oval. As much as I would like to take credit for that idea, let me point out that Sticker Star, of all things, incorporated that idea before this game was even likely a thought. :/

[Gors]

A little late to say but both threads have been merged. You can all discuss the game here.