The Whole Dragon's Crown Sorceress Thing

[Koh]

The discussion from the Lounge.  The place to continue it.

Sorceress

Spoiler

I'll just say what I said in my last post as my first post here.

Target audience must be considered.  Obviously, with designs like that, they aren't catering to people who don't like sexualized characters. Every game isn't going to be designed with your particular tastes in mind, and that's absolutely fine. Unless we're talking obvious terrible game design like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde NES, there's nothing wrong with tailoring a game towards a very specific audience.

[Kriven]

Oh, this is going to be confusing since I didn't notice this thread until I replied to somebody else in the other one... I kind of feel like we should let a mod do some spring cleaning before we make things disorganized?

Edit: What the heck, I'll just quote that person's post and paste mine here.

I'd like to put in my 2 cents into the fanservice debate: I usually don't mind it when it's in games like Senran Kagura and Dead or Alive for the simple fact I don't play the as I never wanted to play them because I have no interest as to me that has seemed to always be the only thing they've got going for them.
What does bother me is when it appears in an established franchise that didn't have it at first or if it did, the "fanservice" was debatable if it really was fanservice at all. The two that come to mind are Fire Emblem and Digimon both have recently started to get fanservicey (even though in FE's case it's mostly becoming more like a fanfiction dating sim, although there are the beach DLCs who give some very fanservicey poses) in Digimons case just google Kyoko Kuremi, and compare the Angewomon art from back in the day to her recent art.

Sure, I can see that as being a problem because it changes the expectations a series has already established. Like if they suddenly gave Amy Rose jiggle physics and made her pole dance, that would be upsetting because it breaks the franchise and character's established tone. It's kind of a betrayal to existing fans.

[Benny The Miraj]

The discussion from the Lounge.  The place to continue it.

Sorceress

Spoiler

I'll just say what I said in my last post as my first post here.

Target audience must be considered.  Obviously, with designs like that, they aren't catering to people who don't like sexualized characters.  Every game isn't going to be designed with your particular tastes in mind, and that's absolutely fine.  Unless we're talking obvious terrible game design like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde NES, there's nothing wrong with tailoring a game towards a very specific audience.

Apparently people who think making games with anthros in them is a waste because "not enough people wouldn't hate it just for staring anthros" beg to differ.

[Koh]

I wouldn't say that...look at how much attention the likes of things like Yooka Laylee or Lucky's Tale got.

[miyabi95_]

Got another Star Fox coming out as well. I find it hard to believe that most gamers hate anthro characters in games considering many of us are part of a generation of gamers who go gaga over cute and quirky animal-like game mascots. (guilty as charged xD)

[Dolphman]

I think it has to do with the decline of those mascot platform games that tried to copy Sonic with very little good ones and a lot of bad ones.
But ever since Freedom Planet came around, it seems to have spark interest in the genre again.

Anthropomorphic characters in serious games are usually reptilians or animal-people based on classic mythology and public domain fiction.
Though we should move back to the subject as there is a thread for discussing anthropomorphic characters.

-On-topic-
I Actually find the Amazon and Sorceress's designs laughable, and I do feel the fanservice is way too forced. Only the Elf looks normal.
There are times we do get turned off by stuff like that, and I'm not afraid to say this is one of them for me.
Now with the male characters. They're just as absurd and hilarious looking, with only the Wizard looking normal. 
The Fighter looks like something you see out of an Doug Tennapel designed game or comic, while the Dwarf looks like a Rob Liefeld drawing.
Still, I don't mind and just deal with the game as it is. People did overreact over the character designs, though. Especially the Tumblr Trash.
Plus I'm a big Beat'em Up fan, and this game is no exception.

[Koopaul]

Oh because some people believe there is some sort of power struggle of the sexes going on and oversexualization somehow depowers people... Unless it is empowering... Depending on the person.

[psychospacecow]

I always thought it was kind of funny that it was the magic woman who was like that. With something as ambiguous and all encompassing as "sorceress", you almost gotta wonder if she did that to herself.

[Koopaul]

If I had magic powers to make myself look sexier, I know I would use them.

[Koh]

I Actually find the Amazon and Sorceress's designs laughable, and I do feel the fanservice is way too forced. Only the Elf looks normal.
There are times we do get turned off by stuff like that, and I'm not afraid to say this is one of them for me.
Now with the male characters. They're just as absurd and hilarious looking, with only the Wizard looking normal. 
The Fighter looks like something you see out of an Doug Tennapel designed game or comic, while the Dwarf looks like a Rob Liefeld drawing.
Still, I don't mind and just deal with the game as it is. People did overreact over the character designs, though. Especially the Tumblr Trash.
Plus I'm a big Beat'em Up fan, and this game is no exception.

Exactly my point.  No one's saying you have to LIKE the designs, but if you took an interest in the actual game, you'd have no choice but to just deal with them as they were made, and enjoy the gameplay.  I'm not into hyper sexualized characters either, but I'm not going to just ignore something I'm interested in because of it either.  Has anyone ripped the sprites from this game yet?  Those animations are incredibly smooth.  An example for aspiring spriters on how smoothly animated things should be these days, regardless of the actual style lol.

[Goemar]

I don't really know how much more there is to say about the Soceress. Obviously it bothers some people and I think it's unfair to say it's the person's fault for having an issue with it - specially when it's obviously not as minor thing as some would want to believe.

The best way I can think of putting it is, say you've been using a website for years. It's your favourite website and everyone knows you use it etc.

Then one day it starts running ads for sexy busty Russian brides or something. It'll be like going on that website in front of your mum. Yes you can shrug it off and apart from a raised eyebrow that might be all it is. But you'd still be a bit upset the ads are there.

Now before any argues with 'the ads where added later' my point is more to that feeling.

I just find it odd how Tomb Raider got slammed for the non-rape scene (a group of evil men trying to rape a woman makes perfect sense in that game) but then games like Dragon's Crown gets a free pass for 'artistic freedom' even though having helium tits adds nothing to the game or character.

[Koh]

I think it's unfair to say it's the person's fault for having an issue with it - specially when it's obviously not as minor thing as some would want to believe.

That goes against the concept of Target Audience though.  Those designs aren't catered to people who aren't into them obviously.  That's why the problem is with the person and not the game.  That particular person has no interest in such designs, which is fine, but it's not the game's fault they don't like that aesthetic.  The game did what it wanted, and to bully the devs into turning it into something they DIDN'T want is a much bigger evil that's been going on lately in the industry. Why can't people design their own characters the way THEY want to?

[Koopaul]

@Goemar

"Free Pass"?

Does anything get a free pass these days?

[miyabi95_]

Everyone should keep in mind: the UN has tried multiple times to get Japanese producers to seize production of ecchi/hentai products, but obviously failed, because these producers in general know the difference between real and fake. And anything fictional that is animated/written/drawn is fake, and therefore should not be taken to heart unless otherwise given some sort of life-changing intention (i.e. fictional character Ellen Baker being used in ESL textbooks for Japanese students, villains in cartoons teaching children how not to behave, etc.).

Fanservice is not for everyone, and nobody's forcing you to like it. You don't have to like it. BUT, just because you don't like it doesn't mean that there's some weird behind the scenes plot to exploit a group of people.

I've spent quite a few years in art communities where people enjoy NSFW art, either creating or viewing. Like I said about those Japanese producers, most of these artists are some of the nicest people on the internet and have bridged the gap between real life and fiction. Just because they sexualize these fictional characters in their work, doesn't necessarily mean they're sexual predators who want to rape people in real life. It's ignorant thoughts like these that have been causing art blogs on Tumblr to be deleted despite being marked for adult viewers only.

Goemar, I realize you're not overreacting to this common trope of media, and I'm not calling you ignorant, but I'm trying to reason with your concerns and arguments.

[Goemar]

I'm not really one to want people to change what they've created. Games like Gal Gun are fine with me, that's the point of the game. You're not going to pick that up if it offends you. Same with Xtreme Beach Volleyball. It's a dumb game with stupidly large breasts (the fact that some characters are a bit young is a whole other issue).

The Soceress is just a stupid extreme. It looks dumb, has no artistic merit and playing as her is unenjoyable because of just how stupid she looks. And even though the other characters are also over the top (the warrior woman for example) it's not to such an extreme that it takes you out the game.

Ninja Gaiden's Rachel was OoT but not to such an extreme. Yes sure, they added six-axis jiggle but you had to do it. It wasn't like every time Rachel came on screen her tits were bouncing around like helium balloons.

Yes I am concerned with how overly sexualised the media as a whole is getting. At work I have school kids (some probably as young as 12 talk about rimming) and that kind of thing concerns me greatly.

My main concern is how ridiculous it is done with the Soceress. It's just in your face pervertedness in a game where the rest doesn't really match that extreme.

I'm not saying the artist is objectifying women. I'm just saying that early on when he stared designing her someone should have tapped him on the shoulder and said 'don't you think that's a bit much?'

I guess with a male dominated industry (specially in Japan) we'll see things like this. Not too long ago we had Quiet in MGS V - which was also dumb (specially the squeezable breasts action figure).

More often than not we seem to have a choice of playing as a white guy with brown hair or a woman with a stupid sized chest.

Sure, over in the west female characters have gotten better and actually became characters over things to save. But you only have to look at the majority of Japanese titles to see the problems with their culture reflected in it.