World of Warcraft Sheet Critique.

[Eagallowglass]

Alright I have merged the two sheets and added the texture into the image. Here's the final piece:



Thank you to everyone who helped. I added credit to Ekoi for ripping the textures and a special thanks in there to RTB, Ekoi, and Vic and everyone else who helped refine the sheet.

Lemme know if anything needs tweaking before submitting.

[Random Talking Bush]

Looks good to me now.

But anyway, let me speak about my personal opinion about textures and 3D model rips.

I know there are quite a lot of textures on tSR now, even though we used to have it limited to just sprites in the past. In my personal opinion, I think that character textures don't have too much of a use by themselves, because you would need to have the 3D models to go with them. Stage textures are fine, though, because they usually have flat UV mapping, and therefore can be used for terrain easily.

I feel that submission Rule #7 needs to be revised in some way. I know that it says that 3D SNES rips (such as Star Fox) are acceptable, but -- let's face it. The Star Fox rips are from 3D models in that game. Heck, someone even made a model viewer for that game! If we can accept those, why couldn't we accept Boo Mario ripped from one angle/size, or even this Broozer from New Super Mario Bros. that was accepted a long time ago? They may be rendered at one angle and zoom level, but that doesn't make them not 3D models.

I say that if the 3D models are ripped with a consistent angle and zoom, and that the ripper supplies the textures to show that they are, in fact, 3D models, then they should be acceptable, because... Wasn't that the way they made the sprites for Donkey Kong Country? Having Rare's 3D models do animations from a fixed camera positioning, and putting them in-game?

[/opinion]

[Vipershark]

That may be true, but Star Fox's models were still only seen from a certain angle and viewing distance, which still validates rule 7.

As vic stated on the last page, on a certain model in WoW the idle itself was over 1500 frames. Going by that alone, I highly doubt that 'glass has ripped every single possible frame from this model. On the larger "emote" section, there are no "transition" frames from the idle stance to each emote. Not only that, but this model uses specific equipment from the game. As I don't play WoW, I'm not sure if this is an NPC or not, so I don't know if the equipment it has changes or not. If it does though, that would mean that the sheet isn't complete until EVERY possible equipment combination is ripped.

Not to mention the fact that, as previously stated, for this to ever become a complete sheet, it would take over 20723040000 frames. And that's only considering a single equipment possibility.

Your Donkey Kong argument does have some validity, but either way, the 3D model used is seen from a fixed angle and distance, with the sprites themselves having their color count lowered to fit the SNES's specifications.

As I said before, these could probably be accepted if the color count was lowered and the frames were reshaded/revamped to become actual sprites.

If it was up to me, I'd only accept the textures.

edit- Your argument about the NSMB "sprites" is solid, but the fact that the game is locked to a single angle and distance makes them valid for ripping. Although they're still technically 3D, you still only see them from one angle, meaning it wouldn't be possible to rip them from the other 359 degrees while playing the game normally. That leaves only one set of animations to rip.

edit again- Even if rule 7 were amended to allow 3D ripping, there would still have to be a way to check for the angle and viewing distance used to rip them. A single degree change would throw off the entire sheet.

[Random Talking Bush]

That may be true, but Star Fox's models were still only seen from a certain angle and viewing distance, which still validates rule 7.

If I recall correctly, didn't the screen rotate a bit if you went to the very left or right side of the screen in Star Fox? That would mean that the sprites would be drawn a bit differently.

Either way, I won't upload these to tSR yet until we can all come to an agreement on what to do with 3D rips. >_>;

[Cobalt Blue]

Starfox is actually 3D even when it has a fixed camera. its a really low poly model. i don't believe that count as a sprite, in the very strict sense of the word. same applies to Virtua Racing on the Sega Genesis. these are all low poly models that, even when they are portrayed from a fixed point of view, they are still rendered as 3D models(the game can rotate the camera and show it from any angle just like the video shows in the game's credits).

this said, we should not mix stuff like lowpoly 3D models and Pre-rendered sprites.(as in DKC, Killer Instinc, starcraft, etc.) they're completely different things and should not be compared as they respond to different results. as the name implies, these are 3D models used to generate a predefined sequence of frames in order to create an animation based on still images, just like in the same way stopmotion techniques are used. they are actually fixed to a camera as they are, in the end, still images.

finally, on the subject of texture ripping, i do believe they are a huge help to anyone who's starting with his 3D works. these textures can and have proved to be a great reference material to anyone developing his skill in 3DModeling, and even on a personal experience i've learned more on how textures actually work and get some ideas on how i can maximize their efficiency. given the textures, a few poses of the 3D model to see how they are seen on the run would be, in my opinion, the best way to set them in a sheet, because it has been already stated that portraying every single and posible view of the model in a sheet would be utopic.

[Vipershark]

this said, we should not mix stuff like lowpoly 3D models and Pre-rendered sprites.(as in DKC, Killer Instinc, starcraft, etc.) they're completely different things and should not be compared as they respond to different results. as the name implies, these are 3D models used to generate a predefined sequence of frames in order to create an animation based on still images, just like in the same way stopmotion techniques are used. they are actually fixed to a camera as they are, in the end, still images.

this is pretty much my point. If 'glass does what I said and lowers the color count to make these actual prerendered sprites, then they'd be acceptable.

While the models used in games like NSMB aren't prerendered, they're still locked to a single angle, which as I previously said, validates them for ripping.

As for the starfox screen turning thing, I don't recall such a thing happening. The model itself turns, but as the camera is fixed, it still works.

[Cobalt Blue]

vipershark, reducing the color count doesnt turn it into a prerendered sprite. that would be necesary if you needed to cut down the memory usage just like in any other sprite, or like cuting down the amount of polygons in a model to reduce its size.

if you take the run frames in his sheet and turn it into an animation, it becomes a prerendered sprite, because the engine is not rendering the animation of the model, its just displaying a predefined animation sequence.

hence the name, pre-rendered.

a 3D model is a 3D model, a Prerendered sprite is a sprite. the ones in starfox ARE 3D models(and thats why you can use an object viewer to check them). if your argument is that a fixed camera turns a 3D model into a sprite then you're opening a huge can of worms. take any racing game for example.

[Random Talking Bush]

As for the starfox screen turning thing, I don't recall such a thing happening. The model itself turns, but as the camera is fixed, it still works.

[Sengir]

Suggestion:

Allow .x/.3ds/.obj models to be uploaded to tSR. Rippers can use OGLE (OpenGL Extractor) on certain games/emulators to rip them.

e: before you say "its the SPRITER'S resource", remember that textures aren't sprites either

[Cobalt Blue]

because it totally makes sense to change the site's name instead of a changing/updating a rule.

also
spriter's RESOURCE.

[Sengir]

...er....

that's what i was getting at

[Eagallowglass]

this is pretty much my point. If 'glass does what I said and lowers the color count to make these actual prerendered sprites, then they'd be acceptable.

They are acceptable as they are because sprites with textures AND without textures from 3d games have already been authorized by administrators.

I can make a sheet like that in a few hours and if these are accepted I'll be submitting them regularly. It will add fresh vitality to the sprite community and they will be extremeley useful for people to use in fan-games, stencyl, sprite flashes ect.

Not only that but if you put wow sheets on this site it will attract new people and keep the community growing and prospering. Sprites are becoming rarer and rarer in games these days and many of the main-stream games have already been ripped to shreds. Think of how many new sheets we could make if this becomes a part of the Sprite family.

Oh and the Icon is drawn up, I need someone to help me with making the icon a link to the image.

[Vipershark]

uh
what does that have to do with it?

did you ignore my other posts about the quadrillions of possible frames that this would take?
not only that, but as Vic stated, many of the animations have over 1000 frames. Even if your sheet were to be accepted, it's still FAR from complete.

[Eagallowglass]

uh
what does that have to do with it?

did you ignore my other posts about the quadrillions of possible frames that this would take?
not only that, but as Vic stated, many of the animations have over 1000 frames. Even if your sheet were to be accepted, it's still FAR from complete.

So you have to rip every single possible image of a character or npc in a game in order for it to be acceptable to this site? I can name about 50 of them ,off the top of my head even, here that need to be taken off then.

[Vipershark]

Well, it would be preferred, I'm sure.

I'm simply saying that your sheet is still lacking in terms of frames anyway. Not to knock you for the work you put into it, but some of the frames there don't seem like they'd animate smoothly if made into gif files. Just saying.